First topic message reminder :

I have just heard that another business run by British is closing which may or may not be due to bullying. Folks obviously might be scared of giving the real reason. On this forum I remember reading that someone has left Bulgaria due to bullying by Brits. I am using the word 'bullying' to describe in general terms the nastiness that makes someone feel they have to leave somewhere where they are otherwise happy. I know this is an emotive topic but one which might need airing. I thought that maybe it would be good to have an outlet on this forum to let people know what can happen if you fall foul, for whatever reason (if there is one) of other British immigrants. Better still, give advice on how to counteract it.

Johnbaz I am not going to get into an argument with you over it, or even into a long debate on the subject. But what I will say is that certain jobs that are done for pin money etc if they had an accident who is going to pick up the medical bills etc if anyone needs medical treatment.

johnbaz wrote:

Do you know a Bulgarian that declares what he earns ?

Yep, I know many that do. I also know many that don't.

johnbaz wrote:

do you know a Brit that declares what he earns in the UK

Yep, I know many that do, I also know many that don't.

Fletch wrote:

I am not going to get into an argument with you over it, or even into a long debate on the subject

Me neither Fletch, and if this thread continues to go off the original topic, then it will be locked and kicked into the bin.

What I will say, is that I've worked every day of my life since leaving college (as did my parents and my wife's parents). I've never taken a day sick (even at the moment, I have a nasty broken ankle but it sure won't stop me working). I've always declared my income and paid (way too much) my tax.

Perhaps all the people working 'on the black' for cash should stop moaning about the state of the roads, etc., because cash payments deprive the government of the vital money needed to put the place in order.

However, this has nothing to do with the original 'bullying' topic, so let's just leave the "
declaring income vs cash debate"
for elsewhere please.

Bullying in Bulgaria is not just between rival businesses. There is personal bullying which has been alluded to on several forums in the past. For some reason a few expats just cannot get along with their fellow countrymen. Maybe they had problems back in Britain and have relocated to Bulgaria, or any other country, hoping to start again. Unfortunately their baggage comes along with them. If you do an internet search on bullying as I previously suggested, there is information about the type of people that bully, how and why they do it. They often pick on someone they think is 'weak' beginning with friendship and then ignoring, turning their backs, gossiping etc etc until the bullied feels totally undermined, isolated and mistrusting of all Brits and not knowing what he or she has done. If the answer is to keep away from the bully(s) they will then probably be accused of being snobbish. This is very sad and I wanted this topic to maybe help anyone suffering from this. It would be unfortunate for the thread to be locked because it has gone off topic or a poster has abused the forum. Please stick to the topic. Willowsend's post shows just how dangerous and destructive the bully can be and the answer is not to 'just give him a slap..' ::

there are many types of bullying, in my experience in the village, there is a click, a bunch of brits that do everything together, exclude new comers and make them feel unwanted. it does affect people, being excluded can hurt and i have seen the way these people openly oppress others. to me this bunch of brits are sad people, insecure, drink to much, have too much time on their hands and have an inflated image that somehow they are better than the rest.

how wrong can they be, over 4 years i have seen this click fragment, people gone home or moved on, the click has diminished to such an extent that those who were excluded from the click now outnumber those in the click, what did they achieve by this so called dominance............nothing

never been a part of it, never wanted to be a part of it, i am my own person and would never tolerate bullying in whatever form.

Yes please let's keep this on topic, after all if anyone wants to talk about the pitfalls of working illegally and what different people think of as acceptable or not, they are free to start another thread about it and I'm sure everyone interested would read it and contribute if they wanted.

I just wished to mention that anyone afraid of business rivalry is missing the point, for instance another guesthouse advertising the attractions of your area is liable to bring more business for you too. If they get more enquiries than they can cope with for a given date they will be passing the surplus on to you - unless you have shot yourself in the foot! I ran a B&
B in Tobermory for a while and we all passed customers on to each other. The same applies to any other work, if you can't fit it in you pass the enquiry on to someone else in your line of business - or you would have done if they hadn't been nasty to you!

At the bottom of all anti-social behavior is fear of one sort or another - in this instance maybe fear that there is not enough business to go round? Or fear that the new people are somehow a threat, that they may be liked more, may steal one's friends, or be cleverer or have more money or style or success or whatever the bully is afraid of losing out on. If we could only convince the bully their fear is groundless and show them how we can be good for each other in business and in other ways, their need to try and crush what they mistakenly saw as a rival, would be removed.

Sticking with the B&
B example, it's easy enough to offer a different slant, for instance a different style of breakfast or some unique features to your accommodation or service, in other words your USP (Unique selling Point) which ensures your preferred type of customer chooses you. However, anyone who comes newly to an area and sets up a business in direct competition with an existing business in a very small market, without approaching them first to discuss the possibilities for mutual gain, can hardly be surprised if they are resented!

I'm not saying such action justifies bullying but it certainly invites ill feeling. However, if you have done nothing to upset anyone yet you suspect someone may be feeling inferior to or threatened by you, it can be helpful to ask their advice about something - anything about which you think they may have experience and enjoy passing on what they know. This shows them respect and I think one thing bullies particularly fear is failing to be respected by others. Simply showing that we value their knowledge can defuse a potential resentment and change their attitude us. Obviously this hardly applies with a seriously vicious clique, but tact and diplomacy never go amiss.

Two more excellent posts. All of what has been said is true but unfortunately, however hard the bullied one(s) try to put minds at ease, some people just prefer to make them outcasts. It is definitely fear and insecurity that is the underlying reason for much bullying but it is no solution although it probably makes them feel better to know they are making someone uncomfortable. Surrounding themselves with a clique is one way of isolating a person. However, if the person moves on it will make no difference and the clique will probably turn in on themselves. Trying to ignore bullying is not always the answer because this can infuriate the 'gang' even more particularly if the bullied one gets on well with the villagers. Often they don't want to integrate themselves but resent the fact that others can and then paranoia sets in that the locals are being turned against them. What a load of nonsense that is. Villagers are very straightforward people and obviously have feuds of their own, but seem able to just distance themselves from an argument. I have yet to witness open nastiness between local people. Why on earth Brits can live and let live I just don't know. I really think that the reason many British people move back to UK is down to bullying and the inability to make proper friendships with other expats. This is sad for Bulgaria and sad for the Brits that feel they have no other option.

I wonder if it would be possible for survivors to form some kind of support group for those who are newly suffering, to pass on their encouragement and advice? A small group would probably be targeted with more ill-will, but if enough people joined including those who have not (yet) been victims but who object on principle to victimisation, would it be possible to provide sufficient moral support and courage to sufferers and frighten off the bullies do you think? Basically a group of people saying "
We are not going to let this happen, pipe down and go away"
- could this work?

I think that one of the problems is that if you move to Bulgaria people dont take into account how isolated they are going to be, most dont speak Bulgarian, and its not an easy language to learn, also dealing with the red tape in Bulgaria is another big nightmare. So I suppose this draws British people together when they first move over, being as the area you chose to live in only allows you to mix with the British people that live there. I believe that this is why there are large areas in Bulgaria, that have attracted British people to live in, these areas became popular with British buyers probably thinking that it would be great to have other British about. It does seem that it does not always work for some people and the big question that always has to be asked is would they have been your friends if you were still in the UK.??? I also think is that if you dont mix with these people then as you say you are seen to be unfriendly or stuck up, so you are isolated by these people. For people like me who moved here 15 years ago or people who moved here quite a few years ago there were no British people to mix with so you just got on with life and were welcomed into the local community. I have always said it was like a second wave of British arriving, and these people tended to stick together as they all sort of came at the same time, so for many that were already here you got ignored anyway. Its hard to ignore people that are bullying you or talking about you behind your back, but I have always found that if you just ignore them and get on with your life they will soon become bored with making trouble for you, this is only on a small scale i.e just village life.

fruitlover wrote:

I wonder if it would be possible for survivors to form some kind of support group for those who are newly suffering, to pass on their encouragement and advice? A small group would probably be targeted with more ill-will, but if enough people joined including those who have not (yet) been victims but who object on principle to victimisation, would it be possible to provide sufficient moral support and courage to sufferers and frighten off the bullies do you think? Basically a group of people saying "
We are not going to let this happen, pipe down and go away"
- could this work?

thats a lovely idea but unfortunately you'd be more likely to end up with a vigilanty group which could then be as bad as the behaviour that everyone objects to. i certainly think that everyone could watch their own behaviour, because it is really easy to become part of one of these groups without meaning to and offer help, advise and support to anyone who would like it. However human nature being what it is an actual group might be counter productive. Would be great if someone could think of a way of doing it so it did what was intended.
I would also agree with fletch, when we bought our first house there was only one other english couple so we made friends with the neighbours and other people in the community which was great. Unfortunately one of the estate agencies then started plugging it as a "
brit"
village and lots more have moved to the same village. Again unfortunately several of them are lager louts with no consideration for others, they ignore the locals and bully the other brits that arent part of the click. But on a bright note the locals are doing a great job of making them feel unwelcome and they are coming over less and less. So if your having problems hang in there, what goes around comes around.

Yes you are right, any kind of support group would have to be purely on a "
We are here, you are not alone"
basis that rejected any idea of retaliation and declined to engage with the bullies in any way. I have to stress this thought was entirely in response to what I've read in this forum as I've no personal experience of it so not really qualified to comment anyway.

Re the question "
Would they have been your friends in the UK?"
one wonders, have some of us been led to move to Bulgaria specifically in order to encounter people and experiences we can easily avoid in our home country, in order to face challenges that give us an opportunity to learn and grow? Just a thought.

beautifulangel wrote:

I would also agree with fletch, when we bought our first house there was only one other english couple so we made friends with the neighbours and other people in the community which was great. Unfortunately one of the estate agencies then started plugging it as a "
brit"
village and lots more have moved to the same village.

Isn't that being a bit selfish? Why shouldn't others enjoy the village too? Surely not all the newcomers are "
lager louts"
or disruptive?
Just because you were one of the first shouldn't make it exclusive.
Sounds a but "
nimby"
to me!!

oldun wrote:

I have just heard that another business run by British is closing which may or may not be due to bullying. Folks obviously might be scared of giving the real reason. On this forum I remember reading that someone has left Bulgaria due to bullying by Brits. I am using the word 'bullying' to describe in general terms the nastiness that makes someone feel they have to leave somewhere where they are otherwise happy. I know this is an emotive topic but one which might need airing. I thought that maybe it would be good to have an outlet on this forum to let people know what can happen if you fall foul, for whatever reason (if there is one) of other British immigrants. Better still, give advice on how to counteract it.

I am just returning to your OP on Bullying in Bulgaria oldun, where you refer to it as an emotive topic but one which might need airing. Well it has certainly captured the imagine of a number of members with some very interesting postings, but I do feel that the topic is drifting a little to village life and squabbles amongst the expats, rather than dealing with the real issue of BULLYING
I personally know of three familes who have been threatened to such an extent that they have packed their bags and left, I also know of at least four other families who would leave tomorrow if they could because of intimidation and threatening behavour, there are three wives in the UK at present who are not looking forward to going back. That is real sad
I and my family have been subjected to bullying and I mean bullying, not disputes or squabbles. We have received phone messages (all recorded) as early as 5am in the morning threatening to kill us and burn our little grand-daughter, but of course the voice of the perpetrator has been recorded to use as evidence. As a result of of these cowardly approaches it was taken serious by the police and protection was given to us
I think it is an excellent idea to share other members views and experiences about BULLYING so keep the posts coming in

Excuse me but I can't see anything in Beautifulangel's post about not wanting others to move to the same village, only that unfortunately some of them are causing trouble where there was none before. Please let's not read into people's comments things that they haven't said? If one wants to read between the lines, surely the implication is that if the later arrivals had made friends with their Bulgarian neighbours too instead of only among themselves, this community could thrive and flourish instead of being spoiled and giving the Bulgarians a bad impression of Brits.

The last post shows the thoughts of many newcomers ( regarding Fletch and Esta's posts). Someone has to come first. As Fletch says, they just had to get on with it, integrate, and come to terms with bureaucracy as best they could. Personally, we welcomed newcomers and offered help where needed. Because we had spare rooms, we did a bit of self-catering for potential property buyers. We thoroughly enjoyed the experience and spent hours over a coffee or glass of wine giving advice as we had experienced it. We always said that things change very quickly over here so our word was not gospel. I remember people on forums actually mentioning our names and giving us unsolicited praise. When people succeeded in purchasing a property, everyone welcomed and congratulated them. How forums have changed! We stopped doing rentals when we realised that we were giving much more than we got in the way of real friendship in the future and we weren' set up as a proper business. Similarly, my partner looked after a few holidayhomes strimming and checking on the houses and keeping keys for just pin money and not a registered business. Didn't even pay for a year's NOI (insurance). Now we have stopped that and sadly do not feel we can offer help to anyone (not that many people have bought in our lovely village for a couple of years) because we mistrust Brits now in general.
Although we were first here, this is definitely not the reason we would keep our distance from newcomers. It is more than likely their expectations of us that would be the problem.
In UK if you go to a bar you do not expect to like everyone or vice versa, but the bars are large, even in most British villages. Here they are mostly very small so sitting on another table is not really a good answer and in many villages there are only one or maybe two bars anyway. Don't forget bars are not only selling alcohol. Many of the old boys in our village only drink juice and enjoy a wafer or popcorn. Its not always down to having one too many beers either. Not all Brits are alcoholics but some just like a pub atmosphere and to join in village life. Its a shame that even this can upset some Brits.
The idea of a support group is good in theory but not practical. It could lead to a 'them and us' society and be counterproductive. Also, the British out here are very fragmented although there seem to be some areas that have a huge expat population. Even driving out to somewhere else to socialise, should you own a car, is not practical due to drinking and driving and who doesn't like a glass of wine with friends or a beer?
The only real answer is to stay strong and not rise to provocation, and never be seen to be drunk. Surely eventually the bullying will stop or am I being optimistic? I know of someone who nearly had their relationship ruined by gossiping Brits which is absolutely horrible. Yes, I agree Willowsend, that there is some very serious bullying going on out here. Its all very well to say the bullies are sad, unhappy people but you have to believe in God, Karma or whatever else you put your faith in and hope that 'what goes around, comes around'. This might take sometime and In the meantime it is very uncomfortable and I hope this thread goes some way to re-dressing the balance and shows that some people do care on this forum and will be thinking of you.
By the way Scunnered, who said that newcomers shouldn't enjoy village life and who has said its their exclusive right? No-one is being selfish, just trying to get a peaceful solution to those who try to bully and be selfish themselves by undermining the peaceful life enjoyed before they arrived.